>>52003

>то её можно дополнить любой машиной потом?

>есть под рукой одна машина студия по очень привлекательной цене и я на распутье.

можно, но стоит учитывать что как контроллер все без исключения машины раскрываются в машинософте, имея при этом маппинг для управления различным другим софтом в мидимоде, но все таки это просто ремаппинг кнопок под команды в другой давке, а не дефолтная интеграция

при этом из всех продуктов под машинософт - контролы, джем, машины - наиболее свободно себя чувствует вне машины контрол (потому что это мидиклава), далее идет джем, который имеет множество разных отличных маппингов под разные давки (я пользуюсь аблой, мне норм), далее идут все машины от микро до студио (кроме микро мк3 - она вроде до сих пор не имеет мидимода насколько я знаю, работает только в машине) - вот с ними как раз таки есть ощущение, что контроллер немного не предназначен для работы вне машины, но тем не менее он имеет рабочие маппинги и они работают, остается к ним только придрочиться.

При этом машинософт может быть загружен как вст в любую дав и можно переключаться на любом машин контроллере в режим управления машинософтом вст и обратно в мидимод управления давкой.

То есть я к чему: если ты хочешь покупать студио не для работы в машинософте, а например для аблетона, то чтобы получить фул экспириенс тебе в любом случае придется использовать машину в виде вст инструмента. Если фул экспириенс машины нинужон, то наверно лучше взять джем вместо студио - он достаточно уверено чувствует себя конкретно в аблетоне, но всякие фичи типа performfx, локинга, страмминга, движка вариаций, морфинга и так далее будут доступны только в машинософте, но никто опять же не запрещает подгружать машину в виде вст и недостающие функции юзать там сидя при этом в аблетоне; ну или как вариант если ты аблетон онли юзер - купить пуш первого поколения или сразу второй.

>То ли взять сразу топовую машину – студию, но если не зайдет машина я обосрусь?

Ну, да, но я несколько сомневаюсь, что машина не зайдет, она достаточно удобна, приучает к порядку и достижению максимума результатов минимальной кровью (привет флстудио с ее хаосом), имеет упорядоченный продуманный рабочий флоу в своем интерфейсе - одно плавно перетекает из другого;
ее единственные минусы как секвенсора:
а)жесткая привязка к блочному конструированию трека внутри нее
б)невозможность наложения паттернов нахлестом или с пересечениями (3.5 года уже ждем обнову, которую нативы обещали, никак не дождемся)
в)невозможность как-то семплы тягать по таймлайну вручную и расставлять их как вздумается

В общем, машинософт + топовый контроллер к ней в любом случае станет если не основным инструментом работы, так уж с вероятностью 95% штукой для удобных набросков будущих треков, эдакий музыкальный блокнот, наработки в котором можно использовать как фундамент при работе в основной дав.

Машина - нестандартная давка, но она и не сложная при этом, по сути разобравшись с основными принципами работы машинософт представит себя в виде цифрового грувбокса.

Вот попробуй прямо щас скачать машинософт и поставить его, потыкаться внутри, мышкой там тоже можно работать. Если в принципе будет терпимо, логика действий ясна, то можешь умножать удобство на 100 когда будешь использовать какой-нибудь контроллер.

>То ли не мучать жопу и ничего не брать?

Насколько хороша цена студио?

Не срача ради, но вот челик достаточно объективно сравнил воркфлоу машины и пуша:

This is a novel. Please read the whole thing.

I've got to say... not digging the Push 2 very much.
I was hell-bent on returning it to the online retailer I got it from, but changed my mind when I started dabbling with Ableton, more. I enjoy it a lot, but feel that Ableton ignores nearly every complaint and feature request. NI can be slow, but they added a lot of stuff we requested, over the years. And fixed a lot of complaints. More on that, a little later.

Roadblocks I reached with Push 2 and things I hate:
You can't hot-swap samples in Simpler or Sampler. Unless the mouse is involved. Which defeats the purpose.
There is no support for Arrangement View. Zero. The notched tempo encoder could easily be a jog forward/back (by measure, or Global Quantize setting), with SHIFT or SELECT.
The browser never remembers where you were, whether choosing a device, or a sample loop.
Yeah, you can create custom presets for the devices (and default settings when inserting one), but, how the hell does one create a default preset for "Convert To Drum Pad" (from an audio clip in Session View, or in Arrangement View)? No way that I can tell.
It seems that a lot of useful things that could and should be done from the controller, cannot be done from the controller. Such as, changing something on an entire Drum Rack. There is a SELECT button, and yet... it only selects certain things. You'd think when you hold it down, it would say something like Maschine's screens--- "SELECT ALL", "SELECT NONE" and also give the option to hit pads to select certain ones, and not select others. Why is this feature not implemented?
You need the main power supply. It's just better with it. You can use it without. But why would you, in general.
Things I hate about Ableton Live 10.1.6 (newest version):
Default devices are overwritten when dragging samples to the Drum Rack. Even when you have a default "Dropping Samples... On Drum Rack" preset. You drag to a pad in Drum Rack... bye. You can have an empty Simpler in there, and you have to drag the sample into the Simpler waveform window, not the pad. Why not the pad?
Why is sample chopping (manually, hip-hop-style) such a pain in the butt? Let's review the fastest way: You create a default Drum Rack with an empty Simpler. On this Default preset, set your chain to "Choke 1" so every time you duplicate a pad, it retains Choke 1 (useful for MPC-style chopping, and Maschine, too). Maybe you created a couple Macros out of the 8, for entire-rack Transpose (useful for chopping soul records), and another for Filter Cutoff. You save this entire Rack (Drum Rack / Simpler / Drum Rack Macros, and Simpler's Transpose and Filter mapped to the Drum Rack Macros) as a default preset, maybe called "Chopping". Great.......... now, drag a sample in. Oops, you dragged it to the pad, as you've been trained to do from countless Ableton videos and dabbling with Ableton Lite off and on for years. Now your Simpler doesn't have the default settings you love, because it's a fresh instance of it. Oh, and your Macros aren't mapped, anymore. Undo. Ok... try again. Ok, dragged to the waveform section. Good. Let's drag another sample. Oops, you dragged it to the pad again...
In Drum Rack, when you have Auto-Select enabled... holy crap LAGGGGGGGGGGGGG. There's just so much lag.
Things I like:
Slicing. Ok. This is one area where Ableton shines, by and large. And this could be the ONLY good selling point, with Push 2. The only one. Guess what-- Maschine's been able to do this for a couple years before Push 2 came out. And wait... slicing is faster than with Ableton... it totally is faster. Speaking of...
Scale modes/note modes. Beautiful. Launchpad Pro's been able to do this since Push 1 (2013). and Launchpad Pro is $550 cheaper than Push, and basically comes with the same version you get with Push 2. Less tracks, but basically the same damn thing. You know what else can do this (scales/notes)? Maschine 2.5, from around the same point in time. But hey... Maschine's got diatonic Chord Mode. Ableton doesn't. Ableton has a Chord effect, which is crap, because it's not diatonic. Diatonic chords: music to my ears (get it)..?
Warping. Yeah, it's still good. And has been around since version 1.0. It's still good, and it's very useful (quick tip-- Reaper can easily warp any audio you drop into any track, and in my opinion, the time-stretching algorithms just sound better.)
Session View, and all the stuff down the left side (same stuff as Launchpad Pro). Fixed Length is also dope, but not needed as you can pre-populate your Session View with empty clips of all length (and name them that very length, too, if you wish, just to avoid confusion). And just overdub into them (which is like recording for the first time).
Step-sequencer, and being able to edit notes right from the Push 2 hardware (where they are, how long they are, velocity, etc.). Like Maschine's hardware editing (Events view), it's a little clunky, but it works and that's a really nice thing.
Real-time clip-recording view. I like the animation and graphics as it zooms out as the clip length increases. It's oddly satisfying.
Track colors, showing you exactly where you are. And, the moving line when in Session View, showing you which tracks are playing (without looking at the grid).
the 8x8 grid and Scene-launching (what Ableton was initially designed for and is STILL what is best at)... but hey, guess what... Launchpad X has 8x8 too ($199)... Launchpad Pro ($249-299 new, $180 used)... Launchpad Mini MK3 ($109)... any older Launchpad ($40-90 used usually). And you get Ableton Live Lite for free with all of them.
But.... that's about... it?

Things I love about Maschine (MK2, MK3, and Studio):
The click-encoder (main one)
Swing is global across all patterns, and easy as hell to get. Want master swing? Turn a knob. Done. Sounds great.
the 4x4 pads are the best out there, period. Best sensitivity, best EVERYTHING.
Color-coding of individual pads (from the hardware, too!)
The Browser and Maschine's entire sound library. ENTIRE sound library.
The color screens on MK3 and Studio.
The left-placed main encoder on MK3 and MK2 (i'm lefty-- strongly prefer this over Studio).
The Controller Editor, giving us freedom for ALL DAWS.... insane, insane freedom. Ask me about my Reaper control surface project, which heavily focuses on having Maschine MK2, MK3, and Studio control Reaper, with the utmost workflow. And bonus-- you can easily control the Maschine plugin inside Reaper WHILE controlling Reaper. Easily.
MK2 and MK3 on bus power--- BRIGHT and JUST the right brightness.
Sample-chopping (oldschool)... nothing. is. faster. Repeat. NOTHING. is. faster.
Sample slicing. Does exactly what it needs to do. Love how you can slice to a new group, or a pad in the current group you're in. You get the OPTION, unlike with Ableton.
You get the full software. You get the FULL software. And it works as a plugin.
You can save from the hardware (after initially saving, with the mouse/keyboard)
You can easily hot-swap, more or less... and it works like it should... without the mouse.
the built-in audio interface and MIDI ports on MK3
the MIDI ports on Studio, MK2, and MK3
It uses WAY less CPU than Ableton. One Ableton Kit, "Feat Pete Kit" uses 12 to 13% of my CPU, with no other tracks active. Thirteen percent. The computer (Windows 7, 64-bit) has 32GB ram, quad-core 2nd generation i7, with a 500GB SSD and full HD display. Really? Thirteen percent?
JAM integration. Ideas View with Jam.
Ability to set pattern length before recording one.
Instruments can be loaded on a Pad, in a Group. 16 Instruments per group. Sub bass, rhodes piano, strings, synth lead, dubstep wobble, bells, plucky mallet thing... or, load a single Instrument per Group, and enable Keyboard/Scale mode. Typical dope hip-hop Maschine project: Group A&B (kits), C D E F G (5 different instruments), and Group H for sample chops.
What I dislike about Maschine:
Arrangement limitations.
No way to record mute automation (group or sound level) or perform/record an arrangement with it, like with the MPC
Time signature 4/4 and only that.
The step-sequencer is.... blehhhh, unless you pair it with Maschine JAM.

I had to get all this out of me... why people prefer the "complete awesomeness that is Push 2" is beyond me. Complete awesomeness is an exaggeration. You still have to do a lot of mouse work. A lot, to put a track together. The videos, so many videos.. "why you need a Push 2"... "Push 2 is a game-changer..." How come so few exist of Maschine MK3? Though what I did notice-- there's a lot of great "making a song/beat with Maschine MK3" and A LOT LESS with Push 2.

How to make a basic song/groove in Maschine

Maschine... start it. Browse. Get a kit or two, a few instruments, and chop up samples EASILY, all within 15 minutes. Try the same with Push 2. And feel that lag when you INSERT AN EMPTY TRACK.

People at this NI Maschine Area forum.... you and I have complained about countless things over the years. But we've also praised a lot.

When you really look at it.... when you really look at it... objectively..... Maschine is the winner, between it and Ableton Live. People praise that Ableton has Arrangement View and Maschine doesn't. Great. A linear arrangement is what every DAW has had, even 1998-era Cakewalk Pro Audio. Maschine as a plugin (assuming your routing is how you want it)... boom. There's your linear timeline. With the plugin, not only can you record MIDI right into the DAW (without using Maschine's timeline/ruler or transport), but you can also record patterns right into Maschine... bounce them out to MIDI, bounce them out to audio... the options are endless, when it's a plugin.

The options aren't as endless with Ableton. The only easy way to perform a set with Ableton is to stick to Session View and keep the instrument playing and finger-drumming decently simple/easy. You can go nuts with Maschine standalone, performing-wise... and pretty much do anything.

Here's another compliment about this very forum, and mods like D-One, and others.... we ask about something. They respond. Every single time. Official NI people respond, sometimes. Things are addressed, acknowledged. Agreed upon. "Yes, we will add this functionality" or "it's on the list of things to possibly add", etc.

Have you visited the official Ableton Forum? Even the Push discussion? Hardly anyone responds there... a lot of people are jerks, and with so many complaints... sometimes threads don't even get any replies for years. We're talking since like 2014 or 2015, 2016. Maybe one reply. Then crickets. How.... discouraging.

Someone on Reddit responded to my "Push 2 needs updating, bigtime" post earlier tonight... saying that maybe these products are designed for people who truly don't know anything about music or workflow. When I look at the $130 I spent each month for 3 months for my Push 2 ($400 invested already), and $400 more to go over the next 3 months.... I think to myself, "is this worth it?" Because most of the time, I don't think it is.

What I've used with Ableton since before buying Push 2 a couple months ago: Launchpad (original), Launchpad MK2, Launchpad Mini, Launchpad Pro, Launchpad X, Launchkey Mini MK3, and Launchpad Mini MK3. I had fun. A lot of fun. Then I thought.... "maybe I should pull the plug on Push 2."

What I should have done is literally pull the plug on the idea. Not pull the plug on a purchase.

I hang onto Push 2 because I also use Reaper a ton, and thanks to Jurgen Mossgraber's DrivenByMoss script... I get a ton of use out of Launchpad Pro (for Reaper), and the Push 2, and those beautiful track scribble strips which let me part with my Mackie Control Universal. Push 2 makes for a great scribble-strip MCU-style thing, for Reaper. Really nice. And it's got some strange Session View-type stuff... not as perfect as Ableton's, but certainly usable.

But seriously.... $799 with Ableton Live Lite (ahem, Intro)... really?

Please, chime in with your thoughts. I know you got 'em.

Once again, thank you to NI, for Maschine, for the plugin, for the Controller Editor, for the work. Once we have a proper Arrangement View / Song Layer, Song-Mode-what-have-you (hopefully in the near future)............... game. f---in'. over.

>>65805

>Можно ли из машины посылать миди в давку?

Конечно. Но там условие - иметь работающий сурфейс любой. То есть допустим для давок которые не имеют поддержки можно влегкую запилить поддержку миди посылов с машины через темплейт Mackie Control, потому что все давки имеют его поддержку.
Вообще для мк3 сделали достаточно много кастомных лейаутов для всех давок пользователи, так что найти я думаю не проблема чтобы самому не корячиться.

>Скрипта для Битвига, я так понимаю, нету

Вот как раз насчет того что я говорил выше: челикс сделал https://github.com/bbumpps/MK3-Bitwig-3.0
И вероятно не он один в принципе вообще.

>но в машине аж 16 если я не путаю миди каналов, и вот с помощью этих миди каналов я хочу управлять транспортом, миксом и макросами в битвиге

Тут такая штука, что 16 каналов доступны только если ты юзаешь машину в машине. Причем первый канал это мастерканал и его нельзя юзать. Так вот, технически чтобы не ебаться с лейаутами кастомными можно сделать гибкую конструкцию из твоей давки и плагина машины и послыать сигналы и в машину и из машины. Туторов полно на ютубе.

>То есть чтоб с каждого канала можно было прописывать секвенции для отдельных инструментов

Используя плагин машины - технически да.

>и накручивать автоматизацию через замапленные энкодеры.

В скрипте по ссылке для битвига есть поддержка Device page and parameter control

>Если у кого-то найдется желание протестить, то такая схема должна для любой дав работать.

Да безусловно, было бы желание замапить вручную все и сделать темплейт. Я вот например вдохновился видосом про контроль параметров через афтертач на атоме https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dnHes2sH6A и запилил себе на машине такой лейаут.

>>65808

>с мужикстора или томмана?

с мужикстора выгоднее, там доставка 20 евро
плюс имей в виду будешь пошли 15% свыше стоимости 200 евро цены машины + 500 рублей таможенный сбор

>Слышал что мьзикстор начинает залупаться, если потребовался возврат по гарантии.

хз, не сталкивался с гарантийными возвратами, но прямо с карты платить не рекомендую, подстрахуйся палкойъ